The Literary Courage and Writing Community of Richie Billing

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Lee Schneider
Richie, welcome to the podcast.

Richie Billing (00:28.645)
Hello Lee, thank you very much for having me.

Lee Schneider (00:31.958)
Now, I read your latest book and I really loved it. It's called Together We Rise. And it, I thought that the short chapters work so well. You do something very interesting, which really engaged me. I wasn't expecting it, which was each chapter is a different point of view. And often when people do that, they have a hard time tying it together. You know, you get this kind of scattery feeling, but it wasn't like that at all.

In fact, you've built upon it in a way that I want to talk about in a moment. But I wanted to ask now first, did that point of view aspect of the book just come to you? Is it something you thought about? Was it planned? How did that come about?

Richie Billing (01:17.797)
So originally the story was all about Tilia and Tilia is the main thread that I'd say binds everyone together in this and she's the main revolutionary and when I knew I wanted to tell the story but I didn't want to tell all of the backstory as well.

I wanted to write a novel without the fluff, let's say. And Tilly's story was long because it's the build up to what happens in Together We Rise. That's about two years, probably longer. And I didn't really want to put all that in. I didn't want to write it either. Because it's just a bit boring, you know what mean? There's some good bits in there, but I you could go back and do bits. But basically she becomes a vigilante, which is the cool bit.

Lee Schneider (02:01.793)
You

Richie Billing (02:08.919)
And then she starts in a sort of comic book hero style. She starts like taking the fight to corruption and injustice and evil in the city and starts taking out gangs and...

corrupt police officers but then she realises basically that it's not enough that she has to change has to come in a bigger way in order for life to get better for everybody and that's why she starts this revolution and and I had a few characters coming into her so Mal she is a character in a short story called the pigeon catchers that I wrote a few years ago

and because she's in Pia Talos, like she was originally in this story with Tillya as well and then we had Dice who's the healer in the story and he's her sort of mentor figure almost and other characters are brought into it because at some point I decided

more down to my frustrations and feelings of despair at the state of the world and very much with frustrations with a system that I feel really stuck in and I don't like that not having that freedom to say no this isn't actually working for me I want to live my life in a different way and we can't do that we're trapped and I was very I've hated that

I think it sort of came to that realization like 10 years ago. Ever since I've just despised the idea that was trapped in the system, that's not fair. And it benefits only the people at the top. And we're just given crumbs to fight over. And the story is very much a critique of that. And one of my favorite TV shows is The Wire. I don't know if you've ever seen The Wire.

Lee Schneider (04:12.686)
Mm-hmm, sure.

Richie Billing (04:14.177)
And I'll tell you why I think the wire so good is because it's it's almost like a visual essay and just a tremendous piece of artwork of a critiquing specifically the war on drugs and how it's destroyed society basically. And. The reason why it was so successful for me is because it looked at the same issue from lots of different perspectives.

It starts off with the drug dealers, the families around them, and also the police officers. It brings in the second season working class people, like working on the docks, the docks specifically, the Steve Doors in Baltimore. And their job is basically

fallen away, their whole life, their whole history, their culture and heritage is falling away because there's no investment in the docs anymore and people are losing their jobs and livelihoods and as a result they're getting sort of sucked into this crime world and that was a brilliant perspective, that's my favourite series and then later on it brings in like the media, the newspapers reporting on all of this

and feeding off basically this horrendous situation. And I wanted to critique this system in the same way and you can't do it from one person's point of view. You really have to bring in a myriad views and different backgrounds and...

And so that's why I wanted to bring in like the working class perspective. You've got the city city guard who's basically the equivalent of the police who's been corrupted for as a bit of a moment of redemption. And then you've got people who are like the top, like the general who's who's seen all happen and is almost like complicity allowing it. that's what I wanted to do.

Richie Billing (06:28.319)
It's also the main point I wanted to show I suppose in choosing all these different characters is that it's the same issue and it affects us all. It doesn't matter if you're left wing or your right wing or if you're down the middle. It's the same issue. We're just seeing it from, for some reason, seeing it from different points of view and...

That's what I wanted to show is that ordinary people, people from all different backgrounds, everyone's got the ability to make positive change in the world. And I suppose for a long time anyway, we've not really had any kind of cultural things showing people. I watched V for Vendetta recently and thought that was probably one of the more recent things that sort of a bit of power in people's minds again.

Lee Schneider (07:20.429)
Mm-hmm.

Richie Billing (07:20.539)
There's not a rambled a bit there. That was a bit of a long-winded explanation for I hope you got your answer

Lee Schneider (07:26.283)
Well, it's good. Now, you answered a question of mine, which I was going to wind into, which was the people in the book are courageous. They're showing us the way it is about social change and it is about revolution and convincingly so. But it's also a courageous book, I think, to write now, because there isn't much out there right now that in pop culture that

supports the idea of social change. We're in a period where it's just not supported, whether, regardless of your political orientation, it's not a time for social and political courage, really. So I admired that about what you were doing and wholeheartedly, you you don't hold back. It makes it really clear what you're going for there.

And I think you accomplish it. So there's not really a question there, but it's more like an appreciation. Yeah.

Richie Billing (08:29.211)
Thank you, Elaine. That's very kind of to say, appreciate it.

Lee Schneider (08:35.821)
Sure. The organ is now this is kind of the geeky writer's mind getting into this, but the the organization of the book struck me very positively because a bit like the wire. And now I'm beginning to see why the wire worked for you is that you really start with kind of the simplest individual. I wouldn't call them lowly because the healer is not a lowly person, but just an individual.

And then as the book progresses, the angle gets wider. You kind of change the lens on the camera with each chapter until we're looking at it from a societal level. And people like the general and others, and even they might be outer-worldly people, people from another place, things get bigger and bigger, which I really liked. I really enjoyed that as a reader because it helped me kind of step along.

Richie Billing (09:33.691)
Hmm.

Lee Schneider (09:33.973)
So my question there is, is this a set up for a series? Is this a standalone? What's going to happen next with these people?

Richie Billing (09:44.58)
Yeah, I am glad that you liked it because I was chatting to someone recently and they were going on about the importance of making the right promises when you start a book and by the end of Together We Rise there's a whole lot of magic going on which is not in there. So I was saying to her, like obviously

Lee Schneider (10:03.65)
Yeah.

Richie Billing (10:08.635)
there's no right and wrong in writing everyone can do it in their own way I'm glad that it's worked here but I was aware that it was a risk that if magic suddenly comes into it then is it gonna jar and disrupt it for people but what you described there is is something I have tried to do is that I wanted to gently take the reader along on this journey and

almost like get to like you climb on a staircase and at the top is a doorway and the doorway we basically kick open at the very end and we reveal a magical world and what this what together we rise is basically the beginning of of an age of turmoil in this world i've called tervia and you get a bit of an idea of

Lee Schneider (10:38.381)
Mm-hmm.

Richie Billing (11:00.559)
the forces at work on a grander scale at the end of the book. I've always, the reason why I love fantasy, I don't know if this, you can relate to this as well. I just love the debate between good and evil.

Like what is it? What is good? What is evil? What drives people to do good? What drives people? It's very philosophical. It's almost you're harking them back to ancient ancient Greece, like good and evil or Lendavates and stuff like that. And I think fantasy on some level, it's all it does get very philosophical and it allows you to explore people's natures and the mostly.

Lee Schneider (11:27.362)
Right.

Richie Billing (11:43.682)
speculated to the forces at work behind them but that's what I've tried to do and in this world that I've created there are two forces there's life and there's nothingness and at one time all that existed was nothingness and then all of a sudden life appeared that could be a big bang or whatever and I just think of it as like a void and in this void is a single star and

All the nothingness wants to do is consume the life and smother the star. And at some point, this star explodes and light, little specks of light go everywhere. And that's basically the life trying to survive. And this battle between these two forces and filter down through every layer of existence, basically down to like humans and.

animals and insects and whatever like because you do see some weird things in in the animal world like what did i see the other day there was a bear and a wolf just walking around just hunting together and it's like what's going on there like something's happened there you know i mean and we can't understand it because we can't communicate with them but we can speculate and and with fantasy you can make things a little bit more magical so it's

Lee Schneider (12:51.691)
Yeah.

Richie Billing (13:05.371)
in this world, Tavya.

The two main forces of good and evil are the Magpies as I call them and they serve a goddess called Udyrra and she's the goddess of balance. That's why Magpies black and white balance. And they're trying to stop the bad guys who are called the Dekira and this was sort of weird ancient race which were created by the old gods, evil gods.

Lee Schneider (13:23.149)
Mm-hmm.

Richie Billing (13:38.175)
help bring them back in a later time which is now and that the Chira have discovered magic which was long forgotten and they're getting closer now to bring them back their masters and this is I suppose the point in time where the magpies realize just like they've they've realized that they've got magic again it's this is the

the tipping point almost and things where shit hits the fan almost. And I've written a novel which follows on directly from Together We Rise which shows that the Chira expanding and trying something else in a different part of the world. But I abandoned edits on that to write Together We Rise so I need to go back to it.

Lee Schneider (14:09.783)
Mm-hmm.

Lee Schneider (14:30.867)
Mm Well, there's it. This is all world building. And I was doing a podcast interview yesterday and we were talking the interviewer asked me, well, what's the if you were to give any advice to a writer working in fantasy or science fiction, what would be your first bit of advice? And I said, get on the world building, spend as much time as possible on the world building, because that will serve you for whatever you're doing next. And

Richie Billing (14:35.44)
Mm.

Lee Schneider (15:00.235)
You've done a wonderful job of this. can kind of visualize it as kind of a pyramid, but standing on the point where we start with something very small and it gets bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. And the the newbie mistake, the rookie mistake would be to just give the talk that you just gave in prose as chapter one, like to explain everything, which is completely, you know, it's interesting here, of course, but it's not interesting in a book.

Richie Billing (15:08.048)
Yeah.

Richie Billing (15:22.492)
yeah.

Lee Schneider (15:30.507)
You know, we've got to drive characters through that sort of thing. So, yeah, I found that.

Richie Billing (15:30.864)
Yeah.

Richie Billing (15:34.524)
And just to give you an idea, explanation only comes about two thirds of the way through that novel.

Lee Schneider (15:43.064)
Uh-huh Yeah, sure. Well, it makes sense. I also have...

Richie Billing (15:44.678)
So you're dead right, like you can't shove it down people's throats.

Lee Schneider (15:48.91)
No, you cannot. I have to ask about the fight scenes in Together We Rise because either you're going to tell me that you're a trained fencer or you were an extra in a Marvel universe movie and you do watch a lot of the NBA. So you must know about, you know, head fakes and moves. And I found the fight scenes really convincing. And the

Richie Billing (15:58.396)
you

Richie Billing (16:07.077)
Yeah.

Richie Billing (16:13.701)
That's good.

Lee Schneider (16:14.537)
I know how hard it is to write spatial stuff, know, like we're the blocking essentially, you know, like blocking a play. So did I want to ask, did that also come naturally or is that something that you really had to work at?

Richie Billing (16:31.321)
I don't really I've never never like I don't think I've ever swung a sword and I've done archery. Archery I love archery like I don't do it honestly once but you learn a lot in that one time and I do boxing

Lee Schneider (16:36.77)
Mm-hmm.

Lee Schneider (16:49.654)
Mm-hmm.

Richie Billing (16:49.709)
So you learn a bit about movements and stuff there. to be honest, what I try and do as much as possible is just put myself in that person's head. I do all I can just to be in that scene. And especially with battles, because the soul, you've got to think how fast it is and how unforgiving.

the situation is and when it particularly comes to medieval fantasy just how brutal it is. No it depends what kind of writing you like. If you like high fantasy for example you don't have to go into detail of how you cut through to the bone and expose all those organs and stuff like that. But I like dark fantasy so I like to just be true about it. suppose it's like

Lee Schneider (17:35.413)
Yeah.

Richie Billing (17:43.1)
medieval warfare must have been horrific like I mean it's horrific now but like just to imagine swinging a sword and cutting off someone's arm or getting like feeling that weapon hitting a bone for example hearing that person scream seeing all the blood and then imagine being a doctor

couldn't do it, couldn't do it. So what I'm trying to get out here is I'm trying to get in that scene as much as I can. And I think with one of the best sort of bits of advice I came across was from Brandon Sanderson when it comes to writing fight scenes.

Lee Schneider (18:08.737)
Yeah. Yeah.

Richie Billing (18:26.853)
You can have your blow-by-blow battle sequences where it's quite intense but you do sometimes need to take that step back just to show, especially if it's a big battle, you need to show what's going on but you run the risk then of breaking perspective because if that character can't see what's happening in the next street over for example.

then it gets really hard. So in Together We Rise, there's a scene at the end where Tilia and Garida, they get onto the roof and you're able to then get a wider vista of what's going on. Leo gives you a different perspective of what's going on. And one of the best things to do when you're writing battle scenes is just to introduce lots of different perspectives.

you might have had side characters in the story and now you can give them their own heroic moment. I love a heroic death, don't know about you, like it's just something really, it just moves you so much. like introducing these at the right moments can really just add a lot of, I don't know, just like life and.

Lee Schneider (19:26.729)
Hehehehe

Richie Billing (19:38.788)
richness to stories and battle scenes can be very one dimensional sometimes I find and I think you've got to find the emotions, the peaks, the troughs. Obviously a character can't stop mid battle and think I can't believe I've just done that and start lamenting about it but there's going to be times when they're going to feel instant fear and then it's what you do, how do you react?

Lee Schneider (19:39.245)
Mm-hmm.

Lee Schneider (19:53.645)
You

Richie Billing (20:04.131)
And then, yeah, don't know. I love battle scenes. What do you like writing battle scenes as well? Fight scenes?

Lee Schneider (20:09.757)
I tend to write action scenes. I've written a few fight scenes, but I find that the issue with them is, for me, really have to put myself in it, and I have to almost think of it like it's happening on a stage or a soundstage or a movie set, and really be aware of the physical space. I used to write cartoons and...

Richie Billing (20:33.093)
Yeah.

Lee Schneider (20:37.329)
One cartoon I wrote was on a planet, and that was pretty easy because the people ran and they hid behind rocks and there were battle scenes and fight scenes there, but they were in a space, an earth space. But I wrote another one, a series which was in space. And that was really difficult because I just it took me a few episodes literally in the animators complaining, sending faxes at the time was faxes, sending faxes back from

Japan and Korea saying, where are these ships coming from? you know, because you have to really think about screen right, screen left, but also the point of view of the viewer slash camera. And that really taught me a lot about writing that kind of a scene, because it's easy to pretend that you have this omniscient view where you can see everything, but you can't. As you pointed out, you you have to put

Richie Billing (21:17.819)
you

Richie Billing (21:33.615)
Mm.

Lee Schneider (21:34.387)
everything in the eyes or the feelings, the perception of a character. And you have to switch characters gracefully if you need to switch characters or put them on a roof. You know, that's a good way to do it. So, yes, I like writing them, but I find them really challenging.

Richie Billing (21:48.986)
yeah it's always good to if you're gonna add more perspectives to try to pick characters that people are gonna care about or people are gonna enjoy see die yeah and I think another thing that helps is especially if it's a large battle just map it out on a piece of paper

Lee Schneider (22:01.069)
Hmm?

Lee Schneider (22:07.789)
Right.

Lee Schneider (22:18.701)
Hmm.

Richie Billing (22:18.843)
and that's what I kind of did with Together We Rise with the map at the back, the city map in the paperback I included a different version of the city map which you find at the front which is the one taken by the revolutionaries and you can see their plan for the day and how they advance up the hill to take the keep

Lee Schneider (22:37.741)
huh.

Lee Schneider (22:44.533)
I wanted to ask you about maps jumping ahead because this is a totally self-interested question because I'm about to make a fantasy novel map. And I have your blog, admittedly, I haven't read it yet, but I will, about how to make a fantasy map. But I wanted to hear a couple of tips from you about how to do them because they're such a staple of this kind of a book.

Richie Billing (22:47.493)
Yeah.

Richie Billing (22:54.949)
Nice.

Richie Billing (23:08.091)
Mm.

Lee Schneider (23:09.397)
You really can't get away. The reader really expects from the days of Tolkien and maybe even before the reader expects to see a map of the world. So what are your thoughts about that and what are your tips about creating that kind of a map?

Richie Billing (23:26.639)
yeah i think i do like a map myself and i think if you're to take someone to a different place you want to show them where they're going almost first and it's a nice reference to if you especially epic novels where you travel quite a lot you want to be able to see get perspective on where you are where the characters are i am useless at drawing so just

Lee Schneider (23:50.605)
Sure.

Richie Billing (23:56.068)
if you're not good at drawing just method, it's fine. There's plenty of great cartographers out there. There are great tools as well. There's a tool called Incarnate.

Richie Billing (24:36.987)
I had like a mad brainwave and I used to do all of my writing at the time in a shed outside and I ended up drawing a map on the inside of the shed. It's there for years and I would sometimes turn around and I'd be looking at where I was in the world. Just draw a map just to give yourself the bearings and then when it comes to doing a novel, have bit of an idea of the style.

because every artist does have to literally their own unique style and if you can find someone who makes cool maps then just reach out to them and see if they'd be interested a lot of them will because they're all artists we all artists need to live and survive and some of them are busier than others I got quite lucky I came across an amazing map and I think it was in

Joe Abercrombie's first lore books and the name of the artist was in the book so quick search find them on Instagram and yeah all systems go so the map was done by the person who made the map for Joe Abercrombie so it's if you're willing to spend the money it's well worth it and

Lee Schneider (25:46.572)
Nice.

Richie Billing (25:56.86)
I think they make a huge difference, especially for this particular story because it's a city.

Richie Billing (26:06.591)
Jack Shepard, the cartographer, he was quite good at city maps, which was quite fortunate. And we had a lot of fun bringing it together and adding all names of places that come up in the story and then just messing around with it at the end with the graffiti and showing the arrows going up the street.

Lee Schneider (26:12.577)
Hmm.

Richie Billing (26:28.205)
So yeah, think just, yeah, just don't be afraid to draw your own thing and just do research on what you want it to look like in the end. And if you think it's worth it, reach out to an artist.

Lee Schneider (26:43.521)
That's great advice. Now, you teach writing and you have a huge Discord community. And I wondered, what is the most rewarding part for you of teaching writing? What makes it really worth it for you?

Richie Billing (26:58.467)
I really like seeing people grow and a lot of the time I find when I'm teaching writing is that people just lack the belief and the confidence and I relate to that very much. So recently I did a series of writing classes in Central Library in Liverpool with the council and the library and

was amazing to see, because I wasn't sure how many people we'd get. But was the first one we were sold out. And a lot of people there, they never have sort of had the sort of belief and the confidence to write a story. And it's really sad to think that they think that writing is beyond them. And...

I've always had, because when I started writing, it gave me such like purpose and a way to process thoughts and feelings, like almost having a conversation with yourself and through stories and just getting things down on paper.

and just using your creative muscles. It just it's really good for you, think. So I've always wanted people to share in them benefits as well. So whenever I find something useful about writing, I'll tend to share it on my website, for example, or blog, Patreon podcast as well.

and it's it's almost like i don't know if i've as a writer i feel like i'm a bit of a collector of ideas and not i every idea works for everybody but these are the things that will work for me so i like to share them pass them on say this is how it's helped me and because that's how i've learned i've learned from other people passing things on that they've

Richie Billing (28:57.869)
and if you think about it, I've got more books on writing than any other category of book. But all of these people, mean some of them probably doing it for the money, but a lot of them aren't doing it because there's something special about writing I think and I think everybody should at least write something. One story, everyone's got a story to tell and encouraging people as much as possible to do it is worthwhile. So that's kind of...

why i do the writing and the main things that people lack is just the belief and you can it's easy to learn things and to follow structures and i mean to be honest all you've got to do is sit down and just write what's in your head but it's mostly the mental barriers that stop people from doing

Lee Schneider (29:45.312)
Now, you mentioned you had some, it wasn't exactly writing advice, but you liked the idea of what I think was Brandon Sanderson said about battle scenes. What are there any other great moments you've had where you a light bulb went on, where you learned something about writing from another person? And what was that that you learned? What really came through?

Richie Billing (30:12.431)
Yeah, when I got a book called The Art of Dramatic Writing by a Hungarian playwright called Lajos Egri, I saw his name referenced in another book by a really good editor, and he's very good book as well, Sol Steen. And he kept referencing Henrik Ibsen and Lajos Egri. And I was like...

these books are going to be worthwhile getting as well so I ended up getting them both and when I read Eggy Greer's book that was delightful moment because he had his very much his own his own approach to writing and for him it all begins with the theme or the premise of the story

and I've never been able to get my head around the theme. No one had been able to explain it to me in a way that sort of clicked and then I read his chapter on it and I was like that just makes perfect sense. Simply put it is the whole point of the story. It's the reason why you're writing it. Not every story needs to have a theme so that's why I don't really

think about it all the time but for him it's the very reason that you're writing it in the first place and if you keep that in mind that will give you the framework for the whole story because if you ever find yourself drifting off you've got your theme there to think I'm a contributing to discussing this theme or this premise

and usually these are just simple statements what was it the Romeo and Juliet is love transcends death so something simple like that and the point you can you can make a statement about anything but the point of the story is you've got to prove it and discuss it and explore it so

Richie Billing (32:15.971)
I really like that. And then the following chapter is about characters and there's so many different things people say about how to create characters. But there's two things in particular, one from Lioche Eagry and one from Solstein. I'll tell you the Eagry one first. And he came up with this method called the bone structure. And...

It helps you essentially create a three dimensional person because it's just a simple questionnaire with prompts and it just asks you to look at each aspect of key aspect of a person. So first of all, you've got the physical appearance, like height, eye color, all that kind of stuff. The second one is sociology.

So this is where it to get interesting. what was the upbringing like? Have they got a good relationship with the parents? What kind of people did they hang around with? And you just go through the questions again and by this stage, you start to, this person starts to come to life. And then finally you've got the psychological elements. And this is usually a result of the first two.

because your sociological makeup, I suppose, is sort of interlinked with your physical appearances too. I always go to an example of there was a guy who went to school with really big eyes. whenever anyone said the word eyes near me, he just got really angry. So obviously the physical appearance.

of his eyes, the fact that he got bit bullied for it gives him like an acute psychological reaction now to sensitivity to anyone saying the word eyes. But the psychology is really interesting as well because that's when you start to look at what people want in life, what the justifications are and stuff.

Richie Billing (34:23.021)
and then I mentioned another one before Solstein he came up with this one called the secret snapshot approach and what this does is it helps you almost get like a deeper understanding of your characters

learning about what their deepest sort of fears are maybe the most traumatic moments and the secret snapshot basically is an image of something like a moment or an experience that they wouldn't never share with anyone they wouldn't tell anybody about it it's the most like deeply personal moment and if that

existed as like a little Polaroid picture they would lock that away and not let anyone see it. It's like most guarded secret. So as the writer your job is to find what is on that picture and if you can

come up with something decent for that then you've got like a really rich and deep understanding of your character and basically of the person they become alive and you understand everything like you don't not just what they want for breakfast but the reason why they want that very thing so

They're the two best things that I've learned. They were the two sort of key moments that helped my understanding. They're almost sort of filled in the last few gaps. And then, yeah, I always go back to them as well.

Lee Schneider (36:03.798)
That's great. Wow, that's really, I'm going to be thinking about that. Those are both turning them over in my mind. Definitely. Thank for those. Those are pretty cool. What is your dream writing project?

Richie Billing (36:22.64)
It's hard to say because my ideas change quite a lot. I suppose Together We Rise, I absolutely loved every moment of that. I think your dream writing project is something that you care deeply about, you're passionate about it and you invest so much time and effort into it that you don't even notice it doesn't feel like a chore.

and something that you're just really excited to share with people and to talk about with people and yeah that so for me I would say Together We Rise is a good example of a dream writing project because I feel like it meant something more as well it's a bit more than just a story for me like I feel like I've made a bit of effort to do to give the reader a bit sort of extra

And I'm always proud to share that just something that you're proud to share with people I suppose yeah

Lee Schneider (37:24.29)
Yeah. What does your creative workspace look like?

Richie Billing (37:32.764)
I've a desk that I sit at, I'm sitting at now, it's like a, I don't know, maybe 80 years old, like an old writing bureau. Not the best for the back I suppose, but I like it. But I tend to work anywhere. I've gotten into the practice of writing on my phone.

So sometimes lunch breaks I'll be writing on my phone and I just use Google Docs because you don't have to worry about anything getting lost and you can just pick it up there and then. Whenever the time, time, I call it the flow. Whenever you can tap into the flow, it's a good time to write and you don't know when or where you might sort of get a bit of an inkling that you can access it.

So like, for example, this week I've just been getting ready to go to bed about midnight and then I just be like, I could do some writing though. I'm not that tired. And then I've ended up doing like 1500 words before I go to bed. So it's it's right anyway, basically. Usually at a desk.

Lee Schneider (38:49.838)
That's great. Yeah. Yeah. I have notebooks all over the place and pencils and pads because I like to write everything down. And usually just before I go to sleep, there's this sort of brain emptying moment. Doesn't always turn into 1500 words for me, but it definitely turns into something sort of the clearing out of the mind at the end of the day. So I wanted to ask you. There is something about that time of day.

Richie Billing (38:59.216)
Yeah.

Richie Billing (39:13.424)
Yeah, it's so weird what that sound with that is.

Lee Schneider (39:18.67)
I think it's the mind lets go a little bit and starts to just perceive other things than the workaday hour-by-hour stuff.

Lee Schneider (39:33.454)
I wanted to ask a wide angle question. What do you think is the state today of fantasy writing and publishing? Where are we at?

Richie Billing (39:36.486)
Yeah.

Richie Billing (39:45.421)
are my perspective is that it's good it's not good for writers and I don't think traditional publishing unless you're mid-level up traditional publishing doesn't work as a model for making a living and I've spoken to a lot of authors this year and who are in situations that I'm aspiring to be in and people who

Lee Schneider (39:49.614)
You

Richie Billing (40:14.438)
this three book deal with really really big publishers that book went down well was circulated around like national book clubs in the US you couldn't ask for more and she's working part time so I was like if that's where I'm trying to be and I want to do this full time because it's something I love and they're not even making money then

that's that's just a broken system isn't it like how are we in a situation where the writer is doing hours and hours and hours and hours of work expending all this amazing creative energy and getting a pittance for it and then the publisher just rubbed the shoulders and said there's a lot of lot of costs involved and it's because there's not a lot of costs involved it's just too many people with their hands grabbing grabbing grabbing and it pisses me off

Lee Schneider (41:09.731)
Mm-hmm.

Richie Billing (41:13.816)
so I think publishing is shit I really do I think indie presses are okay and it's great that they exist but they're on thin profit margins as well it's a difficult time and then you've got AI I'm not worried about AI though I think and I've seen a lot of people using it to write

and you can't call yourself a writer if AI has written that for you. I like the idea of using it for supplementary things like obviously Together We Rise has got a soundtrack that was done with AI and that wouldn't have been possible otherwise. I like making character art and stuff like that and I think it gives a richer experience for the readers.

Lee Schneider (41:53.464)
Mm-hmm.

Lee Schneider (41:59.14)
Mm-hmm.

Richie Billing (42:09.53)
and if you're doing it for the right reasons like that like you're using what AI should be used for let's be honest it's to make our lives and experiences richer and better not just to be manipulated and to ruin us basically so everyone's got their own opinions on on publishing and the way it's going I personally I'm not I'm not Russian

to go and find a literary agent and start pitching books and stuff like that. It's not something that appeals to me. It's a lot of work doing it on your own but at the end of the day are they going to get me much more benefit being with them? I mean some people will say yes, some people will say no.

Lee Schneider (42:47.384)
Mm-hmm.

Richie Billing (43:04.344)
everyone's difference and that's the thing we're right in it's we're always looking for answers because nobody knows them so so it just all comes down to individual experience i suppose what do you think what's your personal opinion on it

Lee Schneider (43:12.11)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Lee Schneider (43:22.432)
It's I have to say mixed because I've had agents as a screenwriter and a television writer. I've had agents and lawyers and there it gets down to there's a lot of people with their hands in the the till or fingers in the pie, whatever the you choose your your metaphor. And you it just you have to love the work at heart, whatever you're doing, the way it gets out there.

Sure, it's not necessarily less work to have other people do it for you, meaning publicists or agents, because you have to give them instruction and you want them acting in your best interests. So it's not like it saves time, if that's the right phrase. can, if you hit the, you know, let's call it the top 10 percent or the top even 20 percent of working writers, it's

Richie Billing (44:10.236)
Mm.

Lee Schneider (44:20.43)
Pretty good stuff, but that's, you can't depend on that. You can't say, well, I'm doing this to become, mean, when I was 18, I assumed that I was going to be a very famous novelist, but that was a long time ago and I haven't become a famous novelist. I've had to do the work myself and enjoy the work for its own sake, I guess. I'm amazed at the, in indie publishing, I love the freedom of it.

Richie Billing (44:22.032)
Yeah.

Richie Billing (44:41.286)
Mm.

Richie Billing (44:48.444)
Hmm.

Lee Schneider (44:48.75)
I do love being a publisher and I hope that some of my books could get picked up by more mainstream folks. But I'm also amazed at what a big cut IngramSpark, which is a printer, takes. When you put your books on IngramSpark, if you want it in a bookstore, you have to allow that bookstore to take 55 % wholesale price.

Richie Billing (45:04.538)
Yeah, I hate single spark.

Lee Schneider (45:17.964)
that leaves very little left for the writer. And I learned to my shock that if they buy the books, they can also, if they don't sell, they can return them to you and charge them back to the account. And that's pretty scary stuff. know, print on demand is a little more equitable. I don't necessarily love the companies that do print on demand, but at least when people need a book, they get a book and it works, you know. So

Richie Billing (45:30.108)
Mm-hmm.

Richie Billing (45:40.549)
Yeah.

Lee Schneider (45:47.063)
Yeah, I mean, that's a complicated, not a very clear answer. I find that if you're going to get into this as a beginner, assume that there's a lot of work beyond just writing. There's a lot of promotion work. There's a lot of production work. There's a lot of publishing work. And it's a fantasy to think, even if you're at the top of the heap, that everyone's going to do it for you and all you have to do is show up at your desk and write. It's not really like that.

Richie Billing (46:01.031)
Hmm.

Lee Schneider (46:17.376)
Even I think even the most successful writers, they have a big hand in what they're doing outside of just the creation of the books. So it comes as kind of a shock how much work is actually involved. But if you like the work, it's OK.

Richie Billing (46:27.556)
Yeah.

Richie Billing (46:32.048)
Yeah.

definitely will pull

Lee Schneider (46:38.464)
Yeah, well, kind of well put. I don't know. it taps on a lot of complicated emotions. So I don't have a I wish I had a clear, simple answer, but I don't really have a clear, simple answer.

Anything else that we should talk about that I forgot to ask?

Richie Billing (46:58.022)
Now you've asked some very good questions I have to say though. I suppose if you want to learn more about writing and more chat about writing then I do have a podcast as well called Fancy Writers Tools yet. I've some interesting interviews on there. Like we were saying before about the bone structure.

Lee Schneider (47:01.486)
All right, good.

Richie Billing (47:19.132)
and looking at psychology and sociology. So I've got psychologists on the show and sociologists as well to chat about all them kind of things to give you a bit more ammunition for your stories. FBI special agents, that was quite an interesting interview. He was a body language expert. And then lot of interesting authors as well.

Lee Schneider (47:30.252)
Interesting.

Richie Billing (47:44.804)
Adrian Tchaikovsky, Armantrout as well and Christmas special this year with RJ Barker. good writer, very nice guy. So yeah.

Lee Schneider (47:55.5)
It sounds great. If people want to learn more about you and your work, how can they find you?

Richie Billing (48:02.172)
best place to go is richybilling.com and if you want to get stories and download all my books the best place to go is patreon and just search for richybilling again there's not many richybillings especially fantasy writers so i'm quite easy to find it's not like i'm called paul murphy or something i'm on socials as well and you can't get books on amazon but as we we sort of alluded to

Lee Schneider (48:23.63)
Good, well good.

Richie Billing (48:31.932)
We like to put more money in the authors pockets so we can write more. So Patreon's the best.

Lee Schneider (48:32.227)
Mm-hmm.

Lee Schneider (48:40.842)
Excellent. Well, thanks so much for being on the show today. I really appreciate it.

Richie Billing (48:45.66)
Thank you very much Dave for inviting me, I say, fantastic questions and it was an absolute pleasure.